Crowd kills passenger after car hits and injures young girl

The driver got out of the car to check on the girl and was confronted by several people. When they began to assault him, the passenger got out of the car to help and was attacked -- and killed. (AP via Houston Chronicle)
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Comments

[anon]

A celebration for the day african americans were given the word that they were free...I bet they were slave descendants or black. Celebrations like that should be cancelled if these people are prone to riot (and I don't just mean ethnically diverse by "people").
They were treated like animals when they wanted to be free. Now they're acting like animals since they're free. It's disgusting and I'm sure their ancestors wouldn't have approved.

[Detritus]

/group hug

[PMN]

TAG, there are lots of people in wheelchairs. I retort with facts. As for the name-calling, read each post of this page. You should be capable to get as good as you give. I am not adverse to any exchange. I admire anyone who disagrees with me as long as they can back up their "facts"- much less their opinions. I can readily admit that my mind can be changed as a result of this. Sometimes I am wrong. Therefore, I evolve.

I could tell you I am a white man (actually a Heinz 57) married to a Ethiopian, but this makes about as much difference as LCB being confined to a wheelchair (except my decision almost certainly involved choice). I am no one's enemy here. I simply possess an aversion to intellectual dishonesty and moral platitudes. I do not buy into it all. Never could. Be it David Duke or Al Sharpton (who I make a point of listening everyday via internet radio).

An assertion: blacks in this country are worse off today than they were in the 1940s. My mindset and opinions do not give license to the problem. I'll call a spade a spade (no pun intended). I'll also wager, my immediate family concerns are more imperiled by this situation than most here. But I'll own that. And I am comfortable doing so. I am intimately more familiar with the problem than most. Understandably, being called a racist can get me going. As I mentioned in a previous post it's a top-shelf pejorative- the last bastion of someone with no argument; no ideas. It's tossed out there to end the discussion. It's complete bullsh*t.

[lowercase becky]

Pmn, why couldn't you have said that several posts ago, rather than resort to a personal attack? Please tell me what is wrong with a white standing up for black, hispanic, Jewish, or any other oppressed group? Did you go back and read the article about the baseball hats with gang logos? I wish you would, if you hadn't.

Where I went to colleg is irelevant to this discussion. But for the five years and two courses of study I was in college I didn't do all my learning from a book. I went to a divers school, in which I interacted with all kinds of people. So those statements were wholey inaccurate, and unnecessary. Fact is, I probably learned more from socializing than I did from books....no that's a lie. I was on the dean's list from beginning to end. (if we are going to call a spade a spade!) I'm not a kid. I was 39 when I started college. So I took a bit more adult approach to the experience and did the work that was demanded.

TAG often defends me against personal attacks. When I used the word love, I meant the way you often love a friend. I have very little information abouth him, except, when he's not being the asshole guy, he's a friend. An ally. That's all.

You got my dander up earlier. And I really have decided not to respond to personal attacks. They are immature and serve no purpose but to intimidate and illicit rancid retorts. Well, I'm done with that. I said I'd handle it. And I feel I have. Thanks for your attention. I appreciate you reading this.

[PMN]

LCB, I never personally attacked you. I responded to your comments and did so with vigor. In an off-handed way, I did insult you. Afterall, what does a criminal justice degree have to do with anything? I can't exactly say what I do for a living other than say the GOP has not paid for the home in which I type this missive. But that should not make a dime's worth of difference. The net is a great leveler. I completely disagree with your statements about black men and crime. Black men are choking the criminal justice system. It's disgusting and a piss-poor testimony to those in previous generations who suffered Jim Crow and real racism. So many black youths are absolute punks and a criminal mindset pervades a culture that has been separated from the mainstream by the enchanted notion of diversity. Diversity sucks. Diversity marginalizes people who already lack resources. Folks who are on death row are poor and who lack resources. You'll never see a rich man executed. Class exceeds race. I'll offer examples, but you know them. I abhor the death penalty. But that's not about race. I despise affirmative action and most welfare. Affirmative action is an implied or assumed insult- your race necessitates ongoing breaks in life because you are, because of your race, an inferior being. People make choices. Outcome is determinate upon these choices. That was the same with me. It was the same with a poor girl in Addis Ababa I fell in love with. It will be the same with our kids. And this may piss you off- as long as I can keep them out of public schools and away from the general negro populace in this country, my children will have a half-way decent chance.

[WZ]

... that was rather revolting, all in all. You realize, your kids are part of the "negro" population in this country?
Same as my kids are part of the Native American population in this country. There are some horrendous Natives who abuse anything they can, systems, people, the care of people who love them - and there are truly stellar human beings as well in that group. Same as in any race. You cant' just decide an entire race is bad. It's inherently false.
As is your assertion black people today don't face real racism - while you speak it.

[lowercase becky]

Thank you WZ. That was well put. I had the same thought, but decided to keep it to myself.

I've made another decision, as well. In the future, after I've read an article, I'm going to scroll down to the bottom of the page, using the end key, bypassing anything anyone else has to say, post my comment, regardless of whether or not it's any longer relevant, and then, and only then, will I go back and read the otherd. I'm no longer going to engage in any racially sensitive debates. As Regina pointed out, I can't change anyone by sticking to my prinicples and trying to have and open debate. It never fails that one of our resident trolls has to make a remark, then it's off to the races (pun intended), and I'm sick of it. If, by what I have to say, I can't change a single person's mind, then my opinion doesn't matter anyway. I might just as well get out some crayons and scribble. I was angry about several responses, but now I'm just sad. I thought I mattered. Guess that was just stupid, now, wasn't it? Oh, I'm not going away. But no more having an opinion on racially sensitive topics. Not me. No. un uh. Not going to happen. As a matter of fact, when I enter 0S&RR, maybe I'll just check my mind at the door. Obviously, all the years I went to school, count for nada, zip, zilch, zero. I'll talk to you later. Goodnight.

[sometimesilie]

You know full well if the victim was black and lynched by another racial/ethnic groups this would be front page news, complete with riots and vigils. What I don't understand is why the double standard? What's up with that? Racism is either a two way street or it doesn't exist, you pick.

[Sean, Torrington CT]

It seems the rascists have mounted their bicycles facing the wrong direction, because I see alot of back-pedalling!

[Cameltoes]

"Look, all the racists gathered in one spot. How heartwarming."

WZ,
What racists??
It was just a matter of time before the term "racist" was going to be thrown out.

"Please tell me what is wrong with a white standing up for black, hispanic, Jewish, or any other oppressed group?"

I can answer this for you: People take it too far.
When white people complained that the commercials featuring La Llorona were considered racist towards Hispanics. Our community was angry because white people just didn't get it. When the PC movement got mad saying that the Taco Bell chihuahua was offensive to Mexicans, we also got pissed about it because they were telling us that a dog that was used by Aztecs to hunt rats is racist when used to sell food. White people get mad because we call black people "negros" (a perfectly acceptable word in Spanish) and make us believe it's something it's not.
If one Hispanic calls another a "mojadito", it's the same as a white person calling another a "hillbilly". However, the PC crusade would have everyone say it's racist even though you can run up and down streets of Mexico without having any special interest groups blacklisting you for life.
When someone get offended on someone else's behalf, it's typically unwarranted. My family is Jewish, and we're also of Mexican heritage. I know what it's like to be at the receiving end of stupid racist and bigotted comments from both Hispanics and non. The people who like to feel offended on our behalf really do more harm than good.
Believe me, WE know what offends us. Minorities don't need someone to tell us what offends us.
You would be VERY surprised what actually offends us and what we consider racist. The comments in this thread really are pretty tame compared to the outright blatant racism you find in the media. Most whites would not see it because it's too subtle, but it's there.
It's ridiculous how this society has become so afraid of the word "racist". It's even worse how people use the word so loosely that when racism does occur, it's no longer being taken seriously.
Really people, KNOW what the word means before using it. Bigotry, trolling != racism. The KKK is racist. Archie Bunker is a bigot. There's a difference.
Rather than focusing on what might offend us, think about what offends you. Why can't white people attack the racism that is so blatant against them? Why is it that I can wave a sign saying "Mexican Pride" without any problems but if a white person carries a sign saying "White Pride" he gets called a racist? Why is it that all minority comedians can get away with doing their whole routine making fun of white people, but white comedians can get fired if they make fun of minorities?
Why is it acceptable to say honky, cracker, white bread, etc to a white person yet it's racist to say "n*gger, spic, etc (the filters here block the word n*gger but not not honky....is that fair?)?
My advise to non-minorities is: worry about yourselves, if the offense is truly atrocious, we'll call on you for aid. For now, just speak your mind (just do it respectfully), if you cross the line, us minorities politely let you know.

[Phranqlin]

Oxhead is right about violence in crowds. It's not a racial thing, it's a mob thing.

As for Christianity not being a source of violence, tell it to the Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland and the Orthodox Serbs and Catholic Croats in the former Yugoslavia, all of whom enthusiastically committed murder, war and terrorism because of religion.

It took NATO intervention to stop the Christians in the Balkans from slaughtering each other and their Muslim neighbors. Northern Ireland, though, seems to finally have realized that making peace between the religious factions will allow it to share in the prosperity that the Irish republic has experienced recently.

[JimmyVa]

F*cking violent animals, all of them. Hope they all get what they have coming to them.

[jimmyjohn]

PMN - "Read the headline and I knew it - groids"

you know it! If a carfull of blacks hit an irish kid during a St Patricks Day parade and the drunk irish people all dragged them out of their car and beat them there would be riots all ovetr the country, Jesse and Al would be raising a big stink and CNN and MSNBC would be running 3 hour specials on it.....but when blacks do this stuff....it is expected. our local "juneteenth" celebration included 2 stabbings and police closing it down early. I don't know why, I thought stabbings in those neighborhoods was kind of like sparklers on the 4th of July in the suburbs.

[jimmyjohn]

Phran - "Oxhead is right about violence in crowds. It's not a racial thing, it's a mob thing. "

yeah, you just keep burying your head in the sand and thinking that...funny, in my city there has been St Patricks Day parades with thousands of people drunk and in attendance for many many many years....not one stabbiing, not one riot, not one shooting.....this year was the 2nd annual juneteenth celebration.....and the second year with multiple arrests, stabbings, and violence. Violence is part of the black culture, it is seen every day in black athletes "posse's" getting arrested for shootings and (c)rap music videos and music glamourizing guns and violence.....but these days everyone is supposed to "accept it" as part of who they are....BS

[jdotglenn]

You always tell there's brown people involved in a story by the number of comments.

[Phranqlin]

jimmyjohn, I've read too many stories about mobs of all stripes running rampant to believe it's just a black thing. White mobs regularly lynched black men and women until recent decades. Hispanic mobs attacked women in Central Park last year during a Puerto Rican Day celebration. Hindu mobs have pulled Muslims out of cars in India and murdered them. Muslim mobs have pulled Hindus out of cars in India and murdered them. A crowd of all races attacked a suspected pedophile in England, burning cars and attacking bystanders. White middle class college students fight, burn cars and vandalize Morgantown after WVU football games. Not to mention all those white British soccer hooligans who riot and beat people up all over Europe.

But yeah, just keep burying your head in the sand and thinking that black people are the cause of all our problems.

[pnwgal]

Yanno...I don't always agree with Cameltoes. Sometimes I wish I could reach out and smack him when I don't agree with him, but damn it...the man makes more sense in his post than all of us put together on this subject!

Kudo, sir...well said.

[jimmyjohn]

lets look at your post Phranq...."I've read too many stories about mobs of all stripes running rampant to believe it's just a black thing. White mobs regularly lynched black men and women until recent decades. THE KEY ITEM HERE IS "UNTIL RECENT DECADES"

Hispanic mobs attacked women in Central Park last year during a Puerto Rican Day celebration. AND THIS MAKES IT RIGHT?

Hindu mobs have pulled Muslims out of cars in India and murdered them. Muslim mobs have pulled Hindus out of cars in India and murdered them. LETS NOT GO TO OTHER COUNTRIES FOR EXAMPLES

A crowd of all races attacked a suspected pedophile in England, COOL ...

White middle class college students fight, burn cars and vandalize Morgantown after WVU football games. THAT IS CALLED IMMATURITY

Not to mention all those white British soccer hooligans who riot and beat people up all over Europe." AGAIN, GOING OUTSIDE OF THIS COUNTRY....AND OF ALL SPORTS, SOCCER ISN'T THE ONE TO GET THIS EXCITED ABOUT.

So....I guess what you're saying is that the black culture of violence should be accepted because you can find small examples of other violence all over the world. I can say this....I have never driven through the city (or the burbs) or watched the local news and witnessed a soccer brawl or football celebration with overturned cars on a regular basis.....wish the same could be said for black violence.

[WZ]

http://www.crimelibrary.com/news/0607/2102_killed_by_mob.html

This apparently had nothing to do with the Juneteenth celebration, according to this article. It also appears the attackers may have been Hispanic as well.

Does that change things?

[WZ]

Cameltoes, I don't know if you missed it, but the racists in question would include the guy who said that blacks can't help but be violent, because it's in their genetics (as if human beings in general, being descended from killer apes, didn't share those genetics).
Anytime someone decides that people must certainly have negative traits based only on the color of their skin, I'd call that racist.

Your other stories are racist too, but in that patronizing way that the majority can have in deciding for others what they should be offended by or not.
I lived in the Native community for 15 years, and have Native kids, so that's about all I can use to demonstrate what I mean.
You can say "How" to an Indian and have it not be racist or ignorant, but merely an amused joke about stereotypes. Something isn't inherently racist because it involves race or even something offensive.

However, outright stating that any group of people causes violence by dint of their skin color IS racist AND offensive.

Esp when it might even be that the attackers (and the two year old boy) may have been of the same race as the man who was murdered.

Seems to me this was more likely a "too much to drink" mob issue vs a racial mob issue.

Perhaps it's also racist if the newspapers purposely linked it to the Juneteenth celebration when it's not clearly related. Well, not racist, so much as wanting to CAUSE a racial controversy and profit from it, which is a different kind of disgusting, perhaps.

The genetic differences between people with black skin and with white skin are often negligible; there are groups of Europeans with more genetic differences than there might be between one group of Europeans and a group of Africans.

[Cameltoes]

"As for Christianity not being a source of violence, tell it to the Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland and the Orthodox Serbs and Catholic Croats in the former Yugoslavia, all of whom enthusiastically committed murder, war and terrorism because of religion."

Correction: They do it FOR their religion not BECAUSE of it. Atheist movements are just as guilty.

"Hispanic mobs attacked women in Central Park last year during a Puerto Rican Day celebration."

While I do not subscribe to the notion that mob actions are solely influenced by race, it is an interesting fact that many Puerto Ricans in NY (aka New Yoricans) are indeed part black and according to my wife, EXTREMELY ghetto. In her words, "they are GHETTO got doggit!". WZ, she is from Puerto Rico so please have mercy on me with the racist stamp.

[Phranqlin]

jimmyjohn, you are putting words in my mouth. I never said that what these any of these people did was right. What they did was wrong and should not be tolerated.

What I DID say is that the reason they were violent was that they were part of a mob, NOT because they were of a specific race. You, on the other hand, claimed that they were violent because they were black. But even a smidgen of knowledge of history and current events would have shown you that mob violence is something that's tragically common worldwide.

I also stand beside my claim that religious friction among Christians is a source of violence in Northern Ireland and the Balkans.

[WZ]

Cameltoes, I'm not as quick with the racist stamp as it might seem. :P
But asserting one group is inherently and genetically more violent because of their skin color is racist when it's simply untrue, at least that's how I see it.
"Ghetto" isn't necessarily about being black, either. :P

[jdotglenn]

So, there's NOT going to be an OS&RR meetup anytime soon?

[Cameltoes]

WZ,
Bigotry is NOT the same as racism. If someone claims that there is a violent gene in blacks, it doesn't necessarily make him a racist. It makes him a bigot. However, if he uses this line of reasoning to propel his race socially, politically, or economically above all the others, then it becomes racism.

"outright stating that any group of people causes violence by dint of their skin color IS racist AND offensive."

This makes you a bigot because you are intolerant of any belief that differs from your own. While I do agree with you that a person's skin color does not correlate to his propensity to be violent (Ghandi was dark skinned and led a huge peace movement), if a person is uninformed and believes the opposite, it is not an indication that he is racist. However, if that person declares a dislike of all people of a certain race and believes his race is superior because of that belief, then he is a racist.
Are all racists bigotted? Yes. Are all bigots racist? No. One denotes a hated based off of a hasty generalization. The other is a wrong conclusion based off of a hasty generalization.

"Perhaps it's also racist if the newspapers purposely linked it to the Juneteenth celebration when it's not clearly related. Well, not racist, so much as wanting to CAUSE a racial controversy and profit from it, which is a different kind of disgusting, perhaps."

I will have to disagree wholeheartedly. The newspaper did not say that the Juneteenth celebration was the cause of it nor did it say that Juneteenth celebrations are violent because it is predominately a negro celebration.
If you want to see a racist news article (and the racism is outright blatant) look at this news link:

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/nb/pasadena/news/4892134.html

If you do not see the racism in this article, then you should really re-think your choice of words when you claim something is racist. This goes for all of you. If you can't see the racism in that article, then none of you need to be getting offended on someone else's behalf because you can't recognize racism when it is so obvious.

"The genetic differences between people with black skin and with white skin are often negligible"

This is somewhat untrue as well. If you're trying to say we're all human, you're right. If you want to turn a blind eye to the obvious differences, then that's just avoiding the obvious to avoid being called a racist. The genetic differences are pretty apparent. The afro, the dark skin, the low tendency to have a different eye color, as well as the tendency of one ethnic group to have heart disease, breast cancer, diabetes, etc. However, those differences are not enough to warrant being called another race. Same race; different characteristics.

[Amy Gdala]

The story about the kids and a train? That's what the posted link was to. Is that the right article?

[WZ]

I'm not talking about visible differences, Cameltoes. I've seen studies that find more genetic similarities (if I'm recalling it strictly correctly, and I'm old today so no guarantees) between, for instance, a certain group of Norwegians and a group of bush people in Africa than between that group of Norwegians and the other Europeans living around them. Let me see if I can find anything about that either way.

As to the rest - yes, there are viewpoints I'm intolerant of. There are viewpoints hateful and destructive enough that they deserve no tolerance.
Saying being intolerant of intolerance is bigoted is not really that meaningful of an argument.

The argument that blacks are genetically more violent is racist because it's false. If it were true it wouldn't be racism.

When you use arguments like were being used earlier in this thread to denigrate one race, there doesn't have to be a stated intent to elevate another race, it's inherent. You can't lower one race without elevating another if only by comparison. I stand by saying many of the things said on this thread were racist, and I'm not seeing anything you're saying that's really disagreeing with that.

Explain to me the obvious racism in that article, in which race is not mentioned. I don't want to make assumptions on what you're seeing, but I just don't see it.

However, me failing your "allowed to talk about racism" check doesn't change my mind or have any affect on how valid my opinion might be. I'm not finding your definition of racism, with its dependance on the elevation of one race while ignoring the denigration of another as an important factor, to be necessarily an authorative view. I'm willing to concede there are people who know more about what racism is than I do; I'm just not seeing how you're that guy as of yet.
And I'm not getting offended on someone else's behalf. I personally find assertations like "Oh, of course there was violence, they're black", to paraphrase, offensive as a human being.

If you're going to keep harping on me in particular finding these comments racist, please explain to me how they're not. They fit your criteria, if you aren't quibbling over the difference between elevating one race vs denigrating another.

Websters says:

racism
One entry found for racism.
Main Entry: rac·ism
Pronunciation: 'rA-"si-z&m also -"shi-
Function: noun
1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
2 : racial prejudice or discrimination
- rac·ist /-sist also -shist/ noun or adjective

Therefore asserting that because they're black they're violent is inherently racist by the implication that whites are somehow different and less violent by dint of their skin color. It doesn't jibe with your definition.

It's not that I don't welcome a good discussion (and you're generally good for that), it's that I don't see anything that I need calling on the carpet for in asserting that the views espoused by some here are racist.

[Cameltoes]

First of all, I want to thank you for being civil about all of this. It's good to be able to enter a civilized debate without resorting to personal attacks. Kudos to you. I think more people should follow your example.

"As to the rest - yes, there are viewpoints I'm intolerant of. There are viewpoints hateful and destructive enough that they deserve no tolerance.
Saying being intolerant of intolerance is bigoted is not really that meaningful of an argument."

Let's look at what the dictionary says of bigotry:

big·ot·ry
–noun, plural -ries. 1. stubborn and complete intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one's own.

It's really a thin line that we must walk. If we practice too much cultural relativity, we allow injustices to take place (like racism). If we practice too little cultural relativity, we're ethnocentric and racist. What a fine line we must walk!

"The argument that blacks are genetically more violent is racist because it's false. If it were true it wouldn't be racism."

Yes it would. Racism is not necessarily an unsound conclusion. Racism is painting EVERYONE with the same brush. To say "all white people are blue-eyed" is not a racist statement."

"When you use arguments like were being used earlier in this thread to denigrate one race, there doesn't have to be a stated intent to elevate another race, it's inherent. and I'm not seeing anything you're saying that's really disagreeing with that."

The comparison wasn't complete though. I have a friend who thinks that white people are dumb as rocks. However, when we say "well what about you??" (he's Jamaican), he says "hell, we're worse!"
Was he elevating his people above another? No. Additionally, why is it not racism when one criticizes his own race? Is there a double-standard?

"Explain to me the obvious racism in that article, in which race is not mentioned. I don't want to make assumptions on what you're seeing, but I just don't see it."

I'm glad you asked. Look at the headline. The headline reads "Joy ride turns to tragedy for four teens". Innocent enough right? Wrong. When I first saw that, I KNEW automatically that the teens were white. I can tell you right now that if they were minorities, it would not be called a "joy ride". Those kids stole two cars. It's auto theft, not a joy ride. While this may be rubbish or even too subtle to notice, it stood out like a sore thumb. I showed this article to several of my co-workers. Every single one who is a minority reacted the same way. Interestingly, my co-workers who were white did not notice or thought it was total b.s.
The same applied to the people living in New Orleans shortly after hurricane Katrina. It's "looting" when it's a minority looking for food; white people were "finding" it. Let's also look at old TV shows. Why is it that when Ricky on "I love Lucy" spoke Spanish, the audience laughed? He didn't say anything funny. He just said something very common. Is just speaking Spanish supposed to be funny or something?
That's the type of racism that is very blatant and apparent to us. This is also what I mean about people taking it too far. If they can't identify racism for what it really is, how can they defend us?

"However, me failing your "allowed to talk about racism" check doesn't change my mind or have any affect on how valid my opinion might be. I'm not finding your definition of racism, with its dependance on the elevation of one race while ignoring the denigration of another as an important factor, to be necessarily an authorative view. I'm willing to concede there are people who know more about what racism is than I do; I'm just not seeing how you're that guy as of yet.
And I'm not getting offended on someone else's behalf. I personally find assertations like "Oh, of course there was violence, they're black", to paraphrase, offensive as a human being."

That's because you don't see it in the same way we do. Believe it or not, we don't make that big of a deal about stupid comments from people. It's the people with a political agenda that do. What bothers us are things like calling an auto theft "joy ride" when it's white kids, or the "missing white girl syndrome" where only young, pretty white girls get national coverage when they go missing.
If you can, from the top of your head name 3 black women who received national coverage when they went missing. Now name 3 white girls. Do you see what I mean?

"Therefore asserting that because they're black they're violent is inherently racist by the implication that whites are somehow different and less violent by dint of their skin color. It doesn't jibe with your definition."

If it is being said that whites are superior because they are less violent, then you're right. It's racist, but I sincerely doubt anyone here is really racist. You and I know very well that each race has its quirks. There's nothing wrong when we laugh at our differences as a group. Dave Chappelle was often called a racist because of how he makes fun of different cultures. But as he explained, it's not saying one race is better than another. It's being able to laugh at how we're different. It's what makes our differences easier to deal with.

[lowercase becky]

I believe about 50 comments ago I asked for someone to show me a picture of this mob to prove that it was a black mob. Or that the child was black. Now, I'm going to check out The Smoking Gun. Thank you.

[lowercase becky]

USNEW:CBSNEWS.com: [Police spokeswoman, Toni]"Chavantez...said there was no connection to the nearby city-sponsored festival for Juneteenth, which commemorates Texas slaves getting the word that they had been freed."

Still no reference to the race of the mob. However, it was NOT related to the Juneteenth celebration. What I've been thinking all along. See comment asking for pictures as proof that mob was black. And until they are named and photographed, that will remain my stance.

[WZ]

That's the other part where it comes across as racism, that it's assumed that this was done by black people.

[lowercase becky]

Well, I found it at USNEWS: CBSNEWS.com.

According to police spokeswoman, Toni Chavantez, there was no connection to the Juneteenth festival. And still no witnesses have come forward.

So, apparently, this entire argument was based on false assumptions, as I suggested about 40 posts or more up the thread.

Two things to add to this. First, the very first thing I read on this thread that annoyed me was the word "groids". I don't remember who said it and I'm not going to go back and look. He or she knows who they are. Second, the statements by PMN, even after he settled down, were completely and totally outrageous, especially since he's married to a black woman. Yes, her culture is different than ours, but if you saw her on the street, would you know that? That is my final word about him on this subject.

[lowercase becky]

I apologize in advance for reposting, basically the same thing. robofilter at work again!

[lowercase becky]

well, you know what they say about assumptions.

[sienna]

Someone asked on the survey thread why there weren't more minority posters. This thread is why. I worked too long and too hard to get through a top college and law school to waste my free time attempting to have rational discussions with ignorant white people who need a scapegoat to make up for their own shortcomings.

The idea that blacks are genetically more violent than whites is ludicrous, espcially given the history of this country and the current state of the criminal justice syystem. Up until the civil rights movement, whites in the south killed black men and raped black women with impunity. Lyching a black man for looking at a black woman was the white man's civil duty. It was not called "violence." It was called "keeping n*ggers in their place."

Fortunately, I was always taught to judge people by their individual merit and not by the color of their skin. Some who post here should give it a try.

[lowercase becky]

Sienna, did you read only the hateful racist posts, or did you read all of it? The regulars here, or a good many of them, have been trying to put a stop to the racist posting that goes on here from time to time. The majority of us regulars are nice people that believe in equality. For your information, and I said this on another thread, I am an open-minded, intelligent person. My only true friend, who is slated to go to Iraq, is a black woman. I know about discrimination, I know about racial bigotry, I know about hate in general. I'm a fat woman. Ok? I know about discrimination. Because my friend is black, I know about racial bigotry. I don't sympathize with anyone, based on their skin color. I can, however, empathize, based on what I know. My mother was a white southern bigot all the way to the grave. I worked hard all my life to be different from her. And I know that many people on this site have done similar self-work. So, with your degrees and time spent at the finest law schools, you, yourself should know better than to lump people all in the same general category. Everyone at this site doesn't come from the same place. We don't make the same incomes. We don't all have graduate or post graduate degrees. Some of us never went to college at all. We don't all hate people of different races or cultures. We have been trying, if clumsily, to defend our beliefs. That's all. I'm going to tell you like I've told others and as I've been told: You are welcome here. But you need to have thick skin someties. I wish you would go back and read this whole discussion, carefully a second time. This is why I got upset with you on the story about the judge suing the laundry. You lump everyone together. And your remarks were just as racist as anyone elses on this page.

That's where I'm coming from. Where are you coming from? Incidentally, being from the south has given me plenty of insight into how black people were treated. I was in a cloth and notions shop one time back in about 1965. There was a very large woman in the aisle, and it was a long way to go back around the other way. I said "Excuse me, ma'am." She said, "Well, sure, Honey." That was it. I treated her with respect, in turn, she treated me with respect. Did I mention this was in Mobile, Alabama? When I got back to our car,and got in, my aunt read me the riot act. I asked why was she yelling at me. I was told that if she ever saw me talking to a n*gra again, she'd blister my behind. I was bewildered that no one in the car took my side. I cried all the way home. Not out of fear. Out of pain that the very thing that I'd been taught about being polite didn't apply to everyone. My dad pulled me aside later, while I was still crying, and tried to explain to me what my aunt thought I'd done wrong. He hugged me and said he was proud of me. He explained that things just weren't the same in the south as they were where we were living at the time. That's all that was said about it. Never another word. But I got it. And I never forgot it.

[sienna]

lowercase - I do appreciate that many of the posters here are intelligent people, and I do judge everyone on an individual basis, and I saw that many were attempting to expose the racists for what they are, BUT try to understand my perspective. It's TIRING!

My point about the Koreans was based on THE ACTUAL STORY. The guy presented evidence that they were notorious for being rude to customers, and I pointed out my own experiences with Koreans growing up. I never said ALL Koreans were rude, but there was evidence in this case that thoes particular Koreans being sued have a history.

But that's my point about the racists ruining the board for everyone. It puts everyone on a heightened state of alert, and what should have been an innocuous comment was labeled racist when it wasn't.

However, as an aside, my son has a friend who is Korean. That friend's father told his son that he should not walk home with my son any more because it would give people the wrong impression. So yes, some Koreans are racist, even in my own overpriced community, even against my son who is an honors student and has never been in trouble. Again, it's tiring.

[thomas]

I'm a minority poster who had enough sense to stay out of this one, except to say that the story was confusing from the beginning, as LB pointed out before the dung hit the fan.

[Cameltoes]

"But that's my point about the racists ruining the board for everyone. It puts everyone on a heightened state of alert, and what should have been an innocuous comment was labeled racist when it wasn't."

QFT
It has gotten to the point where if you're not singing praises another race, you cannot point out anything of another race or you will be considered a racist.... and when actual racism does occur, everyone misses it (the link to the article i posted is a good example)

[ttrentham]

First off, the headline is wrong. A boy was injured, not a girl.

Second, after the initial misleading police press release, it was clarified and is mentioned in the Houston Chronicle story that this wasn't a mob. There were less than 20 people in the immediate area at the time and it appears that 5 or less were actually involved in the attack. Press all over the country is off and running to make this as sensational as possible. Even though the Houston Chronicle story includes the revised APD press info, they still chose to go with "Crowd kills..." as the headline.

The only connection to Juneteenth was a celebration several blocks away. APD just hired a new chief, Art Acevedo, and are in the midst of an officer involved shooting from earlier this month that may or may not have racial undertones.

The racist tone of many of the earlier comments is appalling and offensive, but par for the course on teh internets.

[WZ]

Cameltoes, I very much appreciate the discourse, too.

I thought that might be the angle you're going for on the article you linked; and it is true that from the sympathetic tone (sadly) one can tell it was about white teens.
But imho, that's the way the article should have been written regardless of race. They were just teens, and they DID break the law, but I don't think they deserved to die for it; now their families are grieving. A gentle hand was called for.
Maybe as a whole, when one can see (again, sadly) that articles like this tend only to be written about white teens, this IS racist - the trend, not the article (though, it supports the trend). But in my (admittedly naive) heart, that really is the way the article should have been written no matter what color any of those kids were.
Now I'm feeling all wistful.

There are some serious racists in the Native community (I should be saying Ojibwe, because Natives aren't a homegenous mass either), and there are also many, many Natives who will make angry or pointed or more likely humorously jibing remarks about whites - but they're true, and those people are as likely to make remarks about their own people too.
(There was a sort of gauntlet to run as far as humor; becoming part of the community meant taking their sharpest humor and returning it without a flinch.)
So I agree that just because someone mentions race, it doesn't make it racist. I still think the things that PNM and Swarthy and several others have said on this thread (well, for Swarthy, it's going along with other things he has said on other threads) are racist. I don't see them anywhere pointing out the flaws in their own "race".
Most serial killers are white men. Most family annihilators are white men. Mob killings are rarely dependant on race. None of that mattered or was mentioned by the people who were quick to blame this on the blackness of the perpetrators - a quite possibly erroneous assumption about the color of the perpetrators anyway.

Mostly I agree with you about racism. In this case, I still don't think I was wrong.

[lowercase becky]

I knew from the sketchy nature of this story, that there was more to it than we saw. While I was glad to be vindicated by subsequent responsible reporting, I'm still sad that this thread took the direction it did. I don't like these types of articles, because of their misleading nature. I don't like the way certain posters, such as Swarthy, help the thread to be hijacked based on misinformation. I may only have a community college degree, but that was based on health, not intelligence. I can sniff out bullshit where it lies. And PMN and several others were dropping bullshit bombs left and right.

I further disagree that trying to stop racist remarks is wrong. Since when is it wrong to call someone down for talking what I consider to be filth? I grew up with that bull, and as an adult, I don't have to take it anymore, and I don't. Not at OS&RR, not at home, and not in public. I don't let people get away with talking that way in my presence, no matter who they are, or where they are. I don't tolerate it. Period!

[Cameltoes]

"But imho, that's the way the article should have been written regardless of race. They were just teens, and they DID break the law, this IS racist - the trend, not the article"

I think you missed the point I was making. My point was that if the story were about a group of minorities in a stolen car, it would have read something like "Car Theft Turns Fatal" or something. However, since they are white kids, it's not called theft, it's called joy riding. It's subtle, and most people would not even notice it. For many minorities, it's harsh and very obvious.

"I still think the things that PNM and Swarthy and several others have said on this thread (well, for Swarthy, it's going along with other things he has said on other threads) are racist."

I think by now everyone knows they are just throwing some stuff out there to get a laugh out of some people.

"Mostly I agree with you about racism. In this case, I still don't think I was wrong."

It's not about being right or wrong. It's being able to identify racism for what it really is. A dumb comment here or there doesn't really qualify as a grave injustice unless it's being used to oppress a particular group. I am willing to bet that the majority of people complaining about everything are white. If the comments were really that bad, then why aren't the minorites in an uproar?

"I further disagree that trying to stop racist remarks is wrong. Since when is it wrong to call someone down for talking what I consider to be filth? I grew up with that bull, and as an adult, I don't have to take it anymore, and I don't. Not at OS&RR, not at home, and not in public. I don't let people get away with talking that way in my presence, no matter who they are, or where they are. I don't tolerate it. Period!"

No one said stopping racist comments is wrong. The problem is identifying racist comments for what they are. If people throw the term "racist" for any little thing that SEEMS racist, then you'll be doing us more harm than good. We can handle things ourselves. As I explained before, our voice is loud enough to raise a ruckus if we feel an injustice has been done to us. It's a sad fact that you will not like everything you read in a forum. Sometimes you'll read something that is funny, sometimes sad, and sometimes very upsetting. People have different views with different senses of humor. If some sort of injustice is being done, and you see personal attacks on other posters based on race or something like that. If you're going to be offended on behalf of all the minorities in this country, you're going to have to quit your day job because you'll be putting in 80 hour weeks.
Trust me on this, if someone posts something really out of hand, we promise to do a /summon WZ and lowercase becky to bite a chunk out of their asses, ok?

[WZ]

I think by now everyone knows they are just throwing some stuff out there to get a laugh out of some people.
I doubt that, though it seems a comfortable stance.

As for the article, yes, I do understand if they'd been a minority teen group, the tone would likely have been quite different, but without the comparison there in the article it's hard to call that article racist vs the entire system of journalism.

[Cameltoes]

"As for the article, but without the comparison there in the article it's hard to call that article racist vs the entire system of journalism."

Like I said before, a white person wouldn't catch it. It's subtle, but it's there. There are some blogs that people posted about how the reporters used the word "purloined" instead of "stolen" as well as other euphemisms. People were upset at how reporters seemed to lighten the tone. The blog also comes up with the defense with the fact that some teens lost their lives. That's fine and dandy, but minorities do not get the same treatment.
Also, has anyone been able to name 3 missing minority females that got a lot of media exposure? Anyone?

[Cameltoes]

In case no one could name two black girls who went missing and received NO media exposure, here's two:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/2007/06/24/2007-06-24_do_more_to_find_missing_says_rev_al-7.html

(I know Al Sharpton is quoted in there, but the article's message is still valid despite people's objections to Reverend Pimp Daddy)

[WZ]

"A white person wouldn't catch it" is a load of horse-hockey.
There's no magical thing that happens that makes only brown people truly able to understand (or experience) racism.
I considered and didn't find the article in itself racist. That doesn't mean I don't get racism, it means I disagree with your assertion.

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