Somebody at Notre Dame should go to jail over this kid's death

Winds were stronger than 50 mph and yet Notre Dame football jocks made a student get on a scissors lift to videotape their practice. The lift fell and now the young man is dead. (Shortly before his death, he tweeted: "Holy (expletive) holy (expletive) this is terrifying.") (South Bend Tribune | (Notre Dame Observer) || Jump to the second page of comments

Comments

[stopeatingmysesamecake]

I hate this.

[Sheila]

What a horrible thing to happen, but where does it say someone "made" him go up on the contraption? He obviously knew it was life-threatening. He should have refused to go. His life was more important than filming football practice.

[KDP]

My thoughts exactly, Sheila. I'd be surprised if he was in a paying position and it was really necessary for him to record the proceedings.

[sometimesilie]

I dunno, Shiela, maybe he trusted the *adults* around him enough to figure they wouldn't send him up if the situation was truly dangerous. Anybody who spends any time around 20 yr. old college students knows that although they might be adults, physically and legally speaking, they are not emotionally or mentally.

[jeez]

Typical egotistical jockstrap jocks who think everything revolves about them and there sport like nothings more important.
Perhaps Farmer Bob has the cure.

[Max Headroom]

I predict it will turn out to have something to do with "needing" some hot footage for a fund-raiser, promo, alumni dinner, something, which will turn out to be why they were outside in such crappy weather and "had" to have it filmed.

[Somebody]

Like sometimesilie said, the kid's instincts were on the mark, but he deferred to those who he felt knew better. Whether he was paid or not, he probably felt he had an obligation to do his job unless someone told him otherwise. And know what? Someone should have told him not to and it didn't happen. Gross negligence and a damned shame. Condolences to the family.

[Sal]

I've read through this twice. I see no mention of any big, mean 'ol players forcing the poor Kid to film them. I do see Jim's bias peeking through yet again. I get that anything vaguely religious is icky to him, judging by the tone of the posts through the years, and All Religious Types Must Be Ridiculed Or Guilty Of SOMETHING, but really? Creating drama like this, just because it's a catholic school, and getting all huffy in the post and title about a controversy that's not in the article he linked to, but apparently in his own head? I expect that out of a FOX news anchor.

[icecycle]

I have never noticed this religious bias of Jim's; religious bias is usually quite pronounced, you know.

Someone who points out that God just slam dunked* the poor kid during football practice might be considered biased.

Someone who says that a person in authority should be facing criminal charges might not.

*Football not basketball and I don't even want to think about the sack dance.

[Rock Marine]

There are warnigs posted on machinery with instructions to read the operating manual. Those manuals all state warnings about weather conditions. Lifts are equiped with tilt alarms. He should have heeded the warning. I guess the "student" did not know how to read. It is no different than learning to operate a motor vehicle, safety first. File this under Darwin Award.

[Lambiepie]

Sal, putting a gun to someone's head is not the only sort of psychological pressure other people experience
It's great that you are superior to that sort of behavior, however this kid had a feeling of responsibility that you may not be able to relate to
That said, using a top-heavy piece of eqipment in a high wind is asking for disaster and that is what they got. Now the equipment will have to have a new warning label - Don't be Stupid and Raise This Equipment in a High Wind

[Jim Romenesko]

Sal -- Where's the "religious bias"? The simple matter is this -- the many football coaches on the field knew the conditions and knew they were putting this kid at risk. As the story says, he was basically put in a wind tunnel. Also, the fact that Notre Dame public safety is investigating an incident in which Notre Dame will no doubt be sued for is very suspect -- no, a blatant conflict!

[penandra]

I'm really surprised at the comments I see above. I work in an environment where each of us carries a "stop work" card if we feel there is something not safe about a job. Even though each employee has sat through the same safety briefings, there are some who are reticent to stop work on a job where they might question the safety of continuing --- and these are adults.

I totally understand the apparent mindset of a 20 year-old student filming a football practice that could minimize the consequences and not take an action soon enough to avoid this tragic incident.

[davidrainboy]

I perceived it as bias against athletics rather than anti-religious bias. Regardless, it's patently false to say that football players made him get up on the platform.

Incidentally, the same thing occured at JMU in the mid-nineties during a football game.

[Dances With Books]

Hey, it's simple. It was a Darwin Award moment. He was stupid enough to get on the contraption, shit happened, and now his genes are out of the gene pool. The kid could have refused. Coach pressure or not, I think life is a bit more important than some footage. Let the coach get on the contraption if it is so important.

And I am tending to concur with Max Headroom, given I have worked in academia long enough to know that fundraising, etc. is quite the imperative.

[Max Headroom]

Let s/he among us who has never succumbed to group pressure to do something stupid speak right up.

20 is still young enough to be a kid, and kids looking for a pittance paycheck or to not look yellow in the face of others - jocks or no - or even to themselves, and in an "authorized" environment where they still have the sense that they wouldn't be asked to do something truly unsafe... those kids will find themselves 50 feet up on a lift that no sane construction worker would go near.

Chalk up another poor young bastard killed by testosterone and misplaced trust.

[Jim Romenesko]

Football jocks = the large Notre Dame coaching staff that was on the field and should have known the kid shouldn't be on the scissors lift in those conditions.

[Somebody]

So the kid is to blame and OSHA should mind their own business? If there is a power structure and a hierarchy, where does the buck stop? The kid probably wasn't getting paid, but the ND football coach is probably the highest paid employee of the school. Personal accountability is great, but there is such a thing as organizational accountability. And a sticker on the lift doesn't negate that fact.

[American Veteran]

"Forced", "Made him go up there".

BULLSHIT!!

Nobody made him do anything.

It's whining by kickyballers with empty cups.
I'm an old "jock" and, I won't go up on my own roof when the wind is blowing.

[Somebody]

Is there an irony that two self-proclaimed military guys pin the blame solely on the kid? Military is all top-down structure. Didn't you guys figure anything out with your supposed military service or did the military remove your brain? At ease guys... unclench your sphincters and some thought might be released.

[Max Headroom]

@Somebody - yeah, I noticed that. I guess as sojers they never did nothing nobody told them to... oh, unless they assumed that "nobody" had the authority and behind that authority, some considered right to send them into a potentially harmful situation.

"Get your ass up there and film, kid. It'll be fine." - Somebody in charge there on the field, making those same assurances as AmVet and Rocko's COs...

[Rock Marine]

@ Somebody. I spent 40 years in the heavy construction industry as an Apprentise, Journeyman, Foreman, Superintendent, Project Engineer, and Safety Officer. We have 18 Y/O kids that operate many types of lifts. We build Dams, Bridges, High rise buildings. OSHA is very clear about having even the most uneducated worker properly trained to operate equipment. All equipment must be clearly marked with warnings about not being operated if you have not been thoroughly checked out on that piece of machinery. Supervisors that force workers to perform unsafe acts that result in bodily harm or death can be prosecuted and do prison time. It therefor behooves management to ensure proper training for both workers and supervisors. It also behooves the worker to do the same, if they wish to remain healthy. I saw a young Ironworker walking backwards towards the edge of a building on the 16th floor. I screamed at him to stop, then I asked him who he thought his children would be calling daddy a year from then. People do stupid things, just look at how people operate the machinery we call automobiles. Who is at fault? Perhaps both share in the stupidity.

[Max Headroom]

@RM, there certainly are well-trained young construction workers etc. - but that's the point here. This was not a trained worker and he was evidently taking SOMEONE's word that it was safe to go up in the lift. He certainly wasn't insisting on it or pulling a "here, hold my beer" stunt - he was scared shitless but took someone's word that it was necessary and/or safe. On a well-run job site workers are drilled in both safety and their right to say some form of "F*ck you, buddy" when asked to do something stupid or unsafe. I have no doubt that someone in charge at this incident will be found egregiously at fault for being ignorant and/or stupid in making the kid go up in weather so bad even the football team had been practicing indoors. I doubt any reasonable blame will be laid on the kid's shoulders - and by all this I mean REASONABLE judgment, not some "find someone to blame" judgement.

[Rock Marine]

Very well stated Max.

[Jim Romenesko]

From a reporter who covers Notre Dame football:

"Tragedy at Notre Dame demands answers"

[John_Halfz]

The "Darwin Award" comments are in pretty poor taste. The kid was 20 years old and at a liberal arts university, not a trade school for construction workers. The operative point is that he probably enjoyed his access to the football team (for reasons unimaginable to me), didn't want them to think of him as the kid who wouldn't go up in the lift, and assumed that at least one of the adults who supervise the team would have objected or intervened if conditions were truly dangerous.

[Rock Marine]

Thanks Jim, Looks as if the kid was quite aware of the danger and went up anyway.

[Max Headroom]

@RM - I don't get your conclusion. The kid was scared to death but there's no indication that HE knew the real dangers. There are many situations where you can be in a scary situation without any real risk; who's to say he had the experience and judgment to know the difference?

The telling sentence here is that the weather was so bad the freakin' Notre Dame football team was practicing indoors. Jebus, what a bunch of PUSSIES!

[Don't Forget]

This is why I tell my kids, if you do not feel safe, do not do it. I mean, pretty much that should be common sense. Then again, common sense isn't so common any more if it ever was.

He did have the option of saying no. He was an adult. He was 20 years old. Not 18, not 19, 20.

He knew the danger, and posted about it..

"Gusts of wind up to 60 mph well today will be fun at work ... I guess I've lived long enough."

Freshman, Sophomore, Junior, Senior

Two full years and at least a partial third. He has not learned to think in college in those three years?

No, don't blame the adults. He WAS an adult. Worse, he had more education than 84% of US adults.

No, do not blame the facility, other adults, or anyone other than the choice that he made. This is ALL his doing. He could have said no. He knew the risks and took them anyway.

[JETCO]

I teach at the local college. We have something called "work study." Students are paid to do jobs, from the library, to janitorial, to photography. If the student refuses to fulfill part of the job, they may lose it. This is how they help pay for their education. For many students, no work study means no education.

From the ariticle in "The South Bend Tribune" it appears he was working. ". . . Sullivan, who was a student video worker." The young man wrote, "Today will be fun at work . . ." I assume someone in authority instructed him to get on the lift and film the practice. I've done things I didn't want to do to keep a job and I've trusted authority not to put me in danger.

The South Bend Tribune also writes, "Websites of manufacturers and distributors of similar pieces warn of raising the platform in high winds." I doubt most people, when requested to get on the lift, would have looked at an authority figure and responded, "Not until I've checked the website for safety issues." I read nothing in the article about there being a high wind warning on the equipment and, even if there was, are you going to stop and argue with a superior over what constitutes high winds.

As a fifty year old instructor if I ask a student to do something s/he usually will - no questions asked. They assume I know what I'm doing and fear consequences if they refuse.

It was a preventable tragedy and the person who put the young man in danger should be held responsible.

[Max Headroom]

@Don't Forget: Thanks for the dose of tea-party logic.

[twerp]

I gotta say, I can understand Don't Forget's comments because I also thought similar.

I also thought along the lines of Max Headroom as well.

The conclusion I came up with is that BOTH the student and his supervisors are responsible. Two wrongs don't make a right--it's similar for bad judgements.

The supervisor(s) who told him to go on the lift should be held accountable. This tragedy isn't entirely their fault but they contributed to this untimely death.

[Phranqlin]

I'm with Rock Marine and Max Headroom. The student's work supervisor and the football coach are responsible for safety and should have known that conditions were too dangerous to send him up in the lift.

Everyone who operates scissor lifts where I work is required to complete lift safety training before using them. I wonder if this kid had ever done so?

[joel]

It was Notre Dame. We should be blaming the kid. Just like we should be blaming the 12 year old alter boys for putting their rearends near the priests.

All you Notre Dame apologists are so right, what could any of us been thinking by blaming the perfect nature of Catholisism and it's understood purity and perfection.

The kid got what he deserved. Praise God. He was too old to molest anyway.

[Don't Forget]

"@Don't Forget: Thanks for the dose of tea-party logic. Max Headroom "

That is right, I continually forget it is never the fault of the person who does the stupid thing. Always someone elses fault. Even, when they know what they are doing is stupid or not safe or dangerous.

Excusing stupid behavior only encourages more stupid behavior. He was 20. He knew by his own words it was dangerous. He did it anyway. He took the chance. He rolled the dice and lost. No one to blame but himself.

Just never figured common sense was a "political party" tag line. Makes me want to investigate the Tea Party.

[buddy]

this seems like a christian thing to do

[Max Headroom]

@Don't Forget: I don't usually use bumper-sticker slogans but that one seemed to sum it up. If you can't imagine a situation where someone in authority, in power, in charge isn't culpable for this horrible accident, then you are as short-sighted, self-serving, ignorant and selfish as any Pee Tartier I've had the misfortune to listen to.

[axis_of_weevils]

@Don't Forget - Could you post a copy of your "Hard and Fast Rules for Every Situation that May Arise in the Course of a Human Life"?

I've been working off of this nebulous "conscience" thing that is dependent on facts and is responsive to the peculiarities of human existence and my new experiences.

If you've got something that I could uniformly apply to various situations without regard for the actual circumstances, you'd save me lots of time.

[Known]

@ Lambiepie: Actually, scissor lift are quite bottom heavy. Extremely so. Exactly because of the dangers of tipping. Especially the ones made for outdoors, which have a much wider wheel span. First time I've heard of one turning over. That said, the warnings are clearly stated on the machine.

I agree with twerp. Everyone was at fault, including the dead young man.

But I must point an accusing finger towards the men around him. We men are usually good at securing things, and a couple of good ropes tied to the top and to ground stakes could have prevented this. Still unadvisable. But this would have never happened in a deer camp.

[Max Headroom]

@Known: Even the best lift has questionable stability when extended that high, and presents a considerable wind cross-section. The ones I've seen up close prohibited operation at any steady wind condition over 20 and warned about gusting.

@Don't Forget: To put a more useful spin on my comments, I think you are completely dismissing the notion of implied or assured safety. If you drive across a bridge and it collapses, is it completely YOUR fault? You'd have to establish that this kid knew every risk and that every person who might have known better expressed their opinion and that he took the lift up despite all better judgment and advice. I doubt such a thing is even close to true - and in the end I have no doubt that it will be established that the situation and the school personnel created a belief in implied safety that went beyond anything a 20yo with no experience could have questioned. There's a big difference between "scary" and "dangerous." I am a real big boy and there have been times a situation scared me shitless when I knew I was in no real actual danger. (There are also times I have found out I *should* have been crapping my pants when I foolishly thought I was safe.) It simply isn't about individual judgment and nothing else - not here, and not in governance.

[Don't Forget]

you are trying to excuse the actions of a grown man who knew what he was doing was dangerous by his OWN admission.

I'd say it is unbelievable but not any more. No one ever has to be responsible for their own actions any more. Even when they know the danger to their own life.

Seriously, if your boss tells you to do something you know to be very dangerous and could kill you at an unnecessary risk to your own life... you are going to do it? Really? This is what you are advocating. No job is worth your life if, and this is a HUGE if, it is not specifically your job to do so. You know, like cop, military, etc.

If this is what passes for college educated it is a sad statement of higher education these days.

and @axis_of_weevils

Yeah, if I know something is overtly detrimental to my life... don't effing do it. Pretty simple yeah? How much you think he was getting paid? 15.00? 20.00? an hour. Yep, sure that was worth his life.

Keep in mind, he knew it. So he must have thought the benefits outweighed the risks. How is that an employers/bosses fault?

When did you forget that you can always say no. Might cost you your job. But... you would be alive to find another. Yeah, I know, makes no difference after all you can always blame someone else, right?

[Max Headroom]

@Don't Forget: Tea Party I said, and Tea Party I will repeat... you simply can't conceive of a situation outside your limited viewpoint and can't see the inherent contradictions in your illogic.

You live in a giant cocoon of people watching out for you, but you're convinced that somehow you're just so dadgum smart and aware that you aren't dependent on any of them, and anyone who has shit rain down on them has only themselves to blame. But you'll dial 9-1-1 and read off your Medicare number when the chest pains hit, won't you?

[axis_of_weevils]

If you think that those tounge-in-cheek Twitter posts were literal statements of how much risk the student thought he was in, then you don't get to have conversations with me.

I consider speaking with the foolish (although, I have an inkling that your just being disingenuous) to be "overtly detrimental to my life."

If I got dumber as a result, I'd have only myself to blame.

[JD]

Perhaps nobody "made" him do it, but surely a person in authority SAW him up there..... So why didn't somebody say "Hey, somebody get that kid down from there. Staff knew their practices were taped, they knew they had a student worker to do it, so why would they NOT know to tell him not to go up there in such weather? He was told to go up on this lift and video tape practice.... I'm sure he wouldn't have gone if he was told not to in inclement weather, but he went...... So he must not have been told to use his own judgement. He was doing as he was told, thus doing his job. Paid or unpaid makes no difference. Neglegence on the staff's part..... No two ways about it.

[Don't Forget]

and you obviously cannot understand that no one is going to look out for your life first and foremost and it is your responsibility to do so.

always someone elses fault, always.

Damned sad, stupidity kills all too often. And this was about as stupid as it gets.

[axis_of_weevils]

Every breath you take disproves your point.

Stupidity thrives. It procreates like the rabbits at the Viagra test lab.

[Krash]

The Aggies did something as stupid as this killed several people a few years ago. From ALL the hype, I thought Tertiary education was to help you AVOID this kind of stupid sh*t.

As for me, the American auto industry said I needed a degree to continue doing what I'd done for them for 25 years. Then all the COLLEGE-Degreed Jerks managing the companies drove them into Bankruptcy.

NOW, I'm self-employed and Successfully growing my own business without a "sheepskin" while the College-fools are working at Walmart and Mac-Donalds and complaining about their unpaid student loans. What IDIOTS!!!!

That's Justice!!!!

[Krash]

BTW, any factory man can tell you a "scissor-lift" is great changing bulbs in a factory, but taking one outside is incredibly STUPID!!! Outside, you use the hydraulic-arm lifts AND always deploy the out-riggers before using the equipment.

Why do I know these things, I READ the instructions...DUH???!!!, Mr. Academe.

[Gapha]

I too am sick of people blaming others when tragedy strikes when they themselves are to blame. I see it in the news all the time. But this case is different.

I don't blame the 20 year old young man at all. Why? The reason I don't blame him is because even though technically he is an adult, the 20 year old brain is not fully developed when it comes to making a good decision.

It is a scientific fact that the portions of the adult brain responsible for good decision making are not fully developed until the age of 25.

Of course, some may argue how a 20 year old could be prosecuted for crimes committed... and the answer to that is that a 20 year old does know right from wrong and criminal behavior from non-criminal behavior - so a 20 year old mind can be criminally culpable.

The key to my point is that when a 20 year old is faced with making a good decision that doesn't involve criminal activity - often 20 year olds aren't capable of making the best or safest choice. It isn't their fault.

As a prior poster stated, 20 year old university students will typically obey any authority figure because they fear the consequences of not doing so. A 20 year old kid attending Notre Dame (which by the way is a prestigious university) - and filming the football practice of one of the most famous football teams in the country (i.e., the Fighting Irish) - is not going to risk his job or risk getting kicked out of Notre Dame by refusing to film the football practice.

I can imagine that even for me, in my late 30s, if I worked as a videographer filming the Dallas Cowboys that I probably would be fired and blackballed as a sports videographer for refusing to film a Dallas Cowboys practice.

Filming the Notre Dame football practice is a BIG deal and BIG money to Notre Dame itself. Reviewing practice reels helps to improve the players' performance. Winning is what keeps Notre Dame prestigious and brings lots of money to the university.

There was a lot more going on behind the scenes that most of you may not realize.

When you combine the severe weather with a 20 year old pressured to work in a dangerous condition combined along with the strong need of a prestigious university with a famous football team to have its football practice taped to ensure future football wins - you have a perfect storm.

[Taylor]

The simple fact is that this student (his age is irrelevant) had SUPERVISORS who are supposed to know the safety conditions under which the equipment is to be operated. No different than a steel mill where the management knows equipment is unsafe, yet allow the workers to continue using it, then an accident occurs and kills someone. Notre Dame football is too important to the university and those in charge, so they put a student's life in danger and killed him. When you are at work today, imagine the building collapsing around you, but your employer knew the building was defective. I bet you wouldn't be posting that it was your fault that you showed up to work.