Cops: Tasing of foul-mouthed woman, 72, was appropriate

After being stopped for speeding, the woman became belligerant and resisted arrest.(The video.) She was using language I wouldn't expect any woman to use, let alone a 72-year-old woman," says a cop. (Austin American-Statesman)
> Man, 32, dies after police use a Taser on him

Comments

[Pop]

It's nice to be able to decide what's appropriate for yourself, rather than, say, by the people who pay your salary. I'll have to ask the boss about that.

[sometimesilie]

Another swing and a miss out of Texas. I mean, if you can't properly restrain a 4-foot-11-inch 72 year old woman without resorting to tazing her multiple times (and putting her life at risk) then you really need to not be a cop anymore. I'm not defending her actions or saying she didn't need to be arrested or go and see a magistrate (I believe that is what happens when you won't sign a ticket) but tazing her? twice? c'mon.

[Sheila]

I saw the video of this incident. She wasn't very cooperative. If a cop tells you to "stand there," it might be a good idea.

[MidtownCoog]

I saw the video. She was asking for it.

Don't mess with Texas.

[Loquiter]

I don't think the use of the taser was reasonable under the circumstances. She is not required to sign a ticket and once the ticket is issued, she was free to go. The officer used excessive force under the circumstances and it appears that he detained her longer than he should have. Her language and demeanor is immaterial. Police are supposed to be trained to not let that affect them and should expect it. She was ticketed, she refused to sign (her right) and the detention should have ended but instead the detention continued and excessive force was used under the circumstances. I hope she files a civil suit.

[stopeatingmysesamecake]

There was a link yesterday in another thread to a news broadcast. And I watched the video.

She did deserve it - hell she literally asked for it. And they showed an interview with her before the video went public, and she lied her wrinkled ass off about the stop.

[pnwgal]

First they put a profoundly retarded kid in prison for 100 years, now they're tasering old ladies. Texas's new state motto should be:

"Texas: We hate the old and the feeble".

I will agree with Sheila - arguing and swearing at the guy with the gun on his hip is usually not the best course of action when being pulled over. Although, if swearing's become a tasering offense, I better steer clear of cops for a good long while.

Good thing the old lady didn't shake her fist at the cop - he probably would have pulled out his gun and shot her in the heart.

[MidtownCoog]

Watch the video and you'll change your story.

The old lady tried to push the cop towards traffic on Texas 71.

ZAP HER!

[Torgo]

"Wait-wait! Don't taze me, sonny!"

[Sheila]

Torgo, LOL

[Mark]

It was safer than trying to restrain her. I am sure if a cop that size wrestled with a tiny 72-year old lady that some bones would have been broken. Or even worse, someone could have been hit by a car.

Regardless, she is a liar and an asshole. Both of those would have been taser-able offenses if our fore fathers had shown a bit of insight.

[Tank]

Texas is located at the bottom center portion of our country.

Assholes are located on the bottom center portion of our torso.

Coincidence? I think not.

[Jack]

People act like tasing is the worst thing you can do to someone besides shooting them... which is WRONG!

Tasing is used as opposed to tackling/fighting with someone... which can hurt both the cop and the subject. Someone above made a great point... if the cop even tried to "bear hug" her or something should might have broken a hip or something like that.

Everyone has an option... comply/behave or be tased... yet they all complain when they get tased.

[stopeatingmysesamecake]

I was thinking more about this, and I imagine there would be a change in law, but if you did see the video, you would see (old or not) a billigerant ahole (who lied about it afterward, before the video was released), everything WAS on tape.

Unless he really HAD to get her to sign it, knowing the video was on, could he say "fine, you old POS, get back in your truck and I'll see you in court with a videotape"? Then either file the ticket or follow her ass to her house.

The question is, do you want cops to let older people behave like this and just let it go? Or change the law so my above scenario is in place? Or above what age is it OK to disregard officer's orders, because I will write it down and hope I live that long.

I realize that we do have somethings called Alzheimers and Dementia, but this biddy was simply a hole of the ass.

[joel]

While I think the old bag was too lippy for her own good, I do agree that the tazer was a bit excessive.

My question is this, if you know that arguing with a cop is going to get you into trouble you might not want to have, why do people still tempt fate this way?

How many stories do we have to read or hear about people who think that rules and consequences are for 'other people'.

So far this month we have:
Naked gardeners
A douchebag who bangs passed out drunk girls and videos them
Some dumbass with toilets in her front yard
A drunk naked chick driving on her cellphone
A dude lights a WalMart on fire because he is pissed about his returns

JakeJake...when is that revolution coming??

[MidtownCoog]

Joel,

Did you see the video? It's more than lip.

Why don't you push a cop and see what happens.

Coog

[USMerc]

I don't think the use of the taser was reasonable under the circumstances. She is not required to sign a ticket and once the ticket is issued, she was free to go. The officer used excessive force under the circumstances and it appears that he detained her longer than he should have. Her language and demeanor is immaterial. Police are supposed to be trained to not let that affect them and should expect it. She was ticketed, she refused to sign (her right) and the detention should have ended but instead the detention continued and excessive force was used under the circumstances. I hope she files a civil suit.

Posted by: Loquiter

Ok....here we go....I can't say what the laws in Texas are, but here in NM, the script goes something like this: "Please sign the bottom of this citation. Your signature is not an admission of guilt, but a promise to appear in magistrate court on ____ date, at ____time."

If a person refuses to sign the ticket, you arrest them, and book them in...THEN, they get an earlier court date...normally the next business day, but I've seen people have to sit in lock up for up to a week before a court date is set. If they sign the ticket while in lock up, they get to leave.

Signing the ticket is just saying that you will appear in court! Just sign the damned ticket and then go on your way! If you refuse, you WILL go to jail...

Tasing an old lady like that.....I wasn't there, so I can't say if it was the right thing to do, but from what I've heard, she was attempting to push the officer into traffic....zap her!

In short, Loquitter, you are wrong...

[mianne]

Loquiter, as a public service, I have to say you're flat out wrong saying she didn't have to sign the ticket. Read the bottom of the ticket carefully, the cop will probably explain it to you as well. (assuming you aren't too busy mouthing off)

By signing the ticket, you are NOT admitting guilt. All you are doing is acknowledging the fact that, you have been issued a citation, that a court date has been set aside for you, and that you agree to make an appearance at the designated time. (Unless you'd prefer to simply pay the ticket uncontested) You are in effect posting a bond with your signature. Refuse to sign and yes, you will be sporting some new jewelry and living in some new digs for a little while

So in summary: you can try to talk your way out of a ticket if you wish; but once it's presented to you, don't make a scene, just sign it and be on your way. Save your arguments for your court date. Refuse, and you're going to jail. Go off on the officer, and you'll likely be tased, bludgeoned, or even shot as a result.

[Sisterblonde]

Ya know... she just may have gotten away WITHOUT a ticket if she'd only been wearing a thong and some tassels.

[Tank]

Wow.

Just watched the video. This cop needs to be suspended, given some desk time, and retrained (preferably by a non-Texan.)

How did this happen?
. She refused to sign (her right)
. He decided to take her into custody for not signing (his right/responsibility)
. He opens her door and gets her out of the car (all good so far)
. She says "give me the ticket and I'll sign it"

So far, there's been no pushing, no threats, no attempted murder by He-Granny, Master of the Quilt, nothing but a cranky old lady getting pissy because she got busted for speeding, and a 260-lb cop who's not having a good day.

So does he say "Good choice. Now sign here and we'll get on our way"?

Noooooo ... he decides it's too late for that, it's time for granny to get a taste of Texas.

Next thing you know, there's pushing ("The old lady tried to push the cop towards traffic on Texas 71" - BULL SHIT, the cop was huge! Me and three buffalo couldn't have pushed his ass into traffic, and HE was the one who pushed her OUT of traffic!)

Then there's yelling, threatening, more pushing, and tazing. And pretty much all of it is being done by the cop.

Dumb ass should learn how to control without escalating, or don't they teach that sort of thing down there?

[USMerc]

I don't know if there's a better video out there, but the one Jim has posted, only shows the end. I would have to see her attitude from the time she was in the vehicle to when she took a ride on the lightning to know, in my own mind, whether she needed it or not...This video is OBVIOUSLY meant to pander to the interests of the lady.

[nellagain]

Once again, let's do the math

72 years old. She was born in 1937.

Age of Majority (18) in 1955.
Age at time of Kent State shootings (1970) 33
Age at invention of taser (1974) 37
Age at time of Law Enf. adoption of taser(1988)51
Age during the LA riots (Rodney King 1991)62
Number of taser reported deaths by 2008--45

Whatever else you are at 51, you sure as hell are an adult. Which means you have to freakin' pay attention.

In the last 21 years of her life roughly 2 people a year have been killed by tasers in the hands of law enforcement. I'm not condemning or promoting the use of tasers, I'm just OBSERVING.

Were we just not paying attention?

[stopeatingmysesamecake]

USMerc:

There is a story here http://www.myfoxdfw.com/

with a longer video and her being interviewed before she knew the video was public.

[LooseyGoosey]

Honestly, the guy's boss that I just watched being interviewed made a good point - if the guy had hit her with a baton it would have hurt her way worse than a taser, same if he'd physically restrained her as much as she was fighting.

If she was 20 we'd say she was on drugs... I wonder what her deal was? If not drugs, then she was just a huge b*tch. She tried to push a cop into traffic. Tase her.

[lynn]

i just do not like tasers. i understand that leo's appreciate the use and need for one. especially if you have a 250 or more, crazed druggie about to stomp you to death. but, more and more i hear these horror stories about deaths from tasering someone.

in these deaths, are the companies and the tasers being reexamined as well as the leo that is using it??

[USMerc]

Thanks SEMSC! I'll check it out now, and be back with my official synopsis!!!! LOL

[USMerc]

Hmmmm...I'd have hated to do it, but in his position, it would be better than breaking her fragile old bones by trying to cuff her while she was struggling...I hope I would have tazed her too....wrasslin' with a 72 yr old woman on the side of the highway would probably have resulted in FAR more damage to her!

Lynn, darlin....Tasers are used as a non-lethal method of gaining compliance. If a person is willing to continue with hostile activity after goin' for a lightning ride...It's time to go to the firearm...Tasers prevent NUMEROUS officer involved shootings every day.

[lynn]

i know merc. of course, i am not too fond of the guns either. however, i would rather my cops be alive than dead ...:)

[jj2]

Let's put this another way: If the loud-mouthed old lady had died (which was a distinct possibility) would we then be saying "she had it coming"? I don't think so. He used force when he could have just lowered his tone and aggressiveness and thought this thing through. Really, when did weapons replace brains as the best, first solution to crime fighting? Let her get into her car, get off the highway, follow her home, arrest her with a backup. Problem solved, nobody gets sued and hopefully nobody dies.
She was a jerk, he was an arse, maybe he could have taken the high road, you know, as the trained professional?

[stopeatingmysesamecake]

Some of my posts are going to limbo.

Tank: She may not be able to push him into traffic, but she certainly is agitated enough to get herself out there. She is coming at him with traffic literally inches behind him. No she can't push him out, but she certainly could go around him. You want him to an ole matador move? Or just drop his arms and let her become one with the pavement?

Unlikely? Well, video of him letting her pass just to be a hood ornament would sure be interesting.

[nellagain]

Lynn, there have been wrongful death suits filed against the makers. And so far they have been unsuccessful.

USMerc, despite Heaven's 17's longstanding (and laying down) respect and affection for LEOs, we just have to adjust your sights a bit.

Tasers are not "non-lethal". No weapon is. Tasers can be less lethal than a gun under certain circumstances. Its all in how and when they are used. There are documented (as I noted 45 at last count) cases of taser related fatality--even when being used as reccommended.

So, folks, pony up for LEO training. Lots of training. And try to discourage jackass behavior towards people who are legally authorized to hurt or kill.

[stopeatingmysesamecake]

Let's put this another way: If the loud-mouthed old lady had followed the officer's orders, would there have "been a tazing"? I don't think so. She became belligerent when she could have just accepted the ticket (being guilty) and just thought this thing through. Really, she would have plenty of opportunity to make he point known in court. Why fight now? Take the ticket, get into your car, get off the highway, go home, and await your day in court (you even have video to back up your story). Problem solved, nobody gets sued and hopefully nobody dies.
She was a jerk, mayybe she could have taken the high road, you know, as a citizen caught speeding in a dangerous construction zone with workers on duty?

Fixed.

[MidtownCoog]

jj2,

You can't just let her drive off and follow her home. Bad bad ideas.

What if the cop did that, and then she caused a fatality in the process?

She's already driving badly. So the solution is to send her back on the road in an agitated state?

Try again.

[nellagain]

MTC, congratulations on your first insightful post. Its a good point.

I was following a school bus (on the Interstate!) on the way into work this morning and got a good view of fourth grade summer campers exhibiting BBBB (Bad Behavior in the Back of the Bus). I was in a bit of quandry about what the hell to do about it.

[Charles Brobst]

Tasering was developed as an alternative to fatal shooting. It has come to be used as a form of punishment, revenge and control. A healthy young policeman is certainly capable of cuffing a 72 year old woman and placing her in his car. Her words may be maddening, but they are not "sticks and stones", no danger to anything more than the officer's feelings. Police brutality, pure and simple.

[jojo]

I can't agree with it being no problem for this officer to get her cuffed. She most likely would have been hurt a hell of a lot more in a struggle with a big guy than with the tazer. There would have been a whole story then on how granny got beat up by the big bad cop. This guy had no choices here. It was lawsuit time regardless at this point, so he went by the book, had the video back up, and should be left alone. Hell he warned her to stop before he tased her...all she had to do was stop being a bi**h and do what she was told.

[nlr]

She was being an ass and deserved to be tased. Would anyone feel different if she had been 22 instead of 72?

[stopeatingmysesamecake]

Hell he warned her to stop before he tased her...all she had to do was stop being a bi**h and do what she was told.
--------------

Isn't that really it? Police (should) know/remember that they are being recorded. If you feel you are being harassed/mistreated after being ticketed for going 15 over in a construction zone, clam up and have your day in court if you are so righteous.

If you are messing with an officer regardless if he is being a dick, what good is fighting over it right there? If a cop says (5 times) do this or I will taze you - do it. What can be more clear than that?

Anyone of right mind knows this - this may be happening often but certainly isn't common. I always assume anyone getting themselves in a situation is either drunk, on drugs, crazy, or protesting something. I'll have to add being an asshole.

[Tank]

"She was being an ass and deserved to be tased."

Apparently nlr and this cop both think the purpose of a taser is to get revenge on assholes.

It's supposed to be used "as a non-lethal method of gaining compliance." {I'm gonna rely on Merc here, as one of our respected experts.}

But he didn't NEED to gain compliance. The first thing she said after he got her belligerent ass out of the car was (I'm repeating myself, sorry) "give me the ticket and I'll sign it".

Seems to me, he had all the compliance he needed, and didn't need to fry granny to do it.

[sometimesilie]

"So, folks, pony up for LEO training. Lots of training. And try to discourage jackass behavior towards people who are legally authorized to hurt or kill."

That's something too sensible to ever happening.

Any cop in Philly who is found violating someone's civil rights suddenly find themselves safely ensconced behind a wall of blue (unless they drop the N-Bomb. Kick an innocent civvies arse and nada, zip, zilch, but drop the N-Bomb in front of a reporter type and kiss your badge goodbye. Seriously, no kidding). The problem is that nearly anyone with a pulse and no felonies can get a badge here and there is a serious lack of accountability.

I, for one, would be willing to redirect more tax revenue to the proper training and pay of good LEO's. If you go to a University and learn to become a teacher and agree to work in the City School district for several years, you get your student debt erased (or paid for by someone else.) Why not for cops? Raise the bar, raise the rewards. Good cops should be kept and paid good money, bad cops should be shown the door and prosecuted for illegal behavior. Not questionable, in-the-line-of-duty behavior, but flat out illegal behavior. Thing is, that's not the way it works in town so there is a whole adversarial relationship with a lot of the community which directly leads to this "No Snitchin'" CRAP (god, there's little that irks me more than that) and keeping violent felons on our streets. It's also one of the reasons why good cops keep getting shot.

Personally I have never had a problem with the Philly police- in fact I'm *happy* to see them and I sure as hell ain't fool enough to go shooting my mouth off- but I know a few GOOD, law abiding citizens that can't say the same. Wrong time, wrong place, wrong color, wrong place, inexcusable and completely unaccountable behavior by the PPD.

[stopeatingmysesamecake]

The first thing she said after he got her belligerent ass out of the car was (I'm repeating myself, sorry) "give me the ticket and I'll sign it".
---------------

You mean right after she told him a couple of times to arrest her? Then she got out and said she'd sign it? How long was that dance supposed to go on?

Anyhow, here's some entertainment
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHZMoPV1rog

[sometimesilie]

Speaking of training cops, I also think that some areas of this and other American cities are so thoroughly out of control that LEO's patrolling those areas should get hazard pay, advanced training, and additional equipment. We leave whole communities in American cities to the wolves while going half way around the world to fabricate some "terrorists" (yeah, I'm a "freedom hater") when the terrorists are here, in our own communities. Illegal guns are a dime a dozen and somehow the NRA will have you think the King of England is going to be quartering Hessians in your house (and not paying!) if we pass legislation mandating the reporting of "lost" or "stolen" guns- a favorite tactic of those straw buyers illegally buying and placing guns in the hands of teenagers who shoot (spray bullets wildly in densely packed areas) each other for drug turf or just for looking at them wrong. Guess if they found oil in Southwest Philly there'd be some interest but for now, not so much.

But that looks and sounds politically incorrect to a whole arrangement of boobs.

[cocomojo]

It's Texas. She's lucky she wasn't shot. She was sure spry enough to give the cop sh**, she deserves what she got. What part of 'Do what the cops say' doesn't she understand?! It's very simple!

[Dave]

Sound was a bit murky, but I could swear the policeman warned her that she would be tased if she didn't comply and she responded, "I dare you."
So, he called her bluff.

[Sigh]

In Texas, signing the ticket is your way out of arraignment -- that is, having your charges read, posting bond, etc. The courts accept the signature as an Own Recognizance (O.R.) bond and as an acceptance of a deferred plea (as in, "I plead not guilty" or "I plead guilty") until your court date.

She has the right to get an expedited arraignment -- guaranteed under the Constitution -- if she so chooses. Of course, they will arrest you, read you your rights, book you, put you in jail, notify the courts, and you will get to see a judge in the next 24 - 72 hours. There, you will have your arraignment and arrange for bond, if any, and perhaps then sign an 'own recognizance' bond.

You can refuse to sign then, too. In which case, you will be remanded to the county jail to await trial. But no officer or court that is following the rules will agree to let you go, pending trial, if you don't agree to show back up for said trial.

So, you have the right not to sign. But, you don't have the right to avoid the legal system.

[ReginaFilangee]

"You can't just let her drive off and follow her home. Bad bad ideas.
What if the cop did that, and then she caused a fatality in the process?
She's already driving badly. So the solution is to send her back on the road in an agitated state?
Try again."---Posted by: MidtownCoog | Jun 10, 2009 12:59:37 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

But.....how is that any different than if she had signed the ticket and left? She would have been sent "back on the road in an agitated state" anyway. All he would have been doing would be to follow her. I think that sounds like it could have been a reasonable solution.

[ReginaFilangee]

I dunno. From that short little blip of a video (just now watched it), I think the officer went a tad overboard.

[Wolf]

Nope, she got what she deserved. Lying granny..she thought her age would leave her above the law.

ZAP her ass.

[Sigh]

A more complete vid

http://www.myfoxdfw.com/dpp/news/Graphic_Video_Granny_Tasered_

[Lou Sussler]

My recollection when PDs first requested Tasers as part of their arsenal was NOT that they were to be used as a non lethal means of getting complaince and NOT that they were to be used as a means of avoiding scuffles and fights but that they were to be used ONLY in place of lethal force. Taser proponents were even talking about relieving law enforcement of lethal weapons and replacing them with Tasers. If you're old enough, try to remember the debate when they first came out.

Clearly they have become an instrument to ensure compliance and avoiding physical scuffles. Many people disagree strongly with this use. Frankly, I would prefer to have seen this woman be injured worse being handcuffed than have been tased because each use of the Taser further legitimizes such use.

I understand the argument that it keeps cops from being injured in scuffles and there is even a financial argument that a cop who is injured in an altercation and goes on disability or worse, has a career ending disability costs taxpayers more in paying 3/4 salary for the rest of his/her life.

Police Officers are or should be properly trained to physically subdue most subjects unless clearly under the influence of alcohol or drugs. I would even support a modification in the use of the Taser when confronted with such a person. But IMO the average non drug doing citizen, no matter how much of an asshole, doesn't deserve to be tased unless the cop was willing to shoot to kill.