Yet another Confederate flag controversy (this one in Minnesota)

Dozens of school staff members have signed a petition asking the school board ban a student's Confederate flag decal on his pickup truck. One teacher says: "We regulate hoods and we regulate hats yet we allow a symbol that is clearly designed to intimidate another group." (Minneapolis Star Tribune)

Comments

[sometimesilie]

hmmmm....a decal...with magical properties? Yikes! Sounds scary for sure!

Who is giving it its power now?

[Pop]

Isn't the US flag a sign of meddling and intimidation in much of the world? Think of the one flying over Guantanamo Bay in Cuba.

[creatrix]

BONG HITS FOR JESUS!

[jakejake]

Another m*f who will be up against the wall when the revolution comes.

[fredzilla]

I suppose I'll catch some heat for this stance, but the Confederate Flag was not a "racist" symbol. Everyone automatically says the Civil War was a war over slavery. It was a war over States' Rights. Lincoln didn't think much more of black people than anyone else. He wanted to ship them back to Africa.

Then again, I'm weird. I've never considered the terms "racist, race and racism" to be accurate in any sense that they're being used. And I don't stand on some hocus pocus magical "everyone's the same" ground. This one is standing firmly on scientific ground. Since the first modern type humans appeared, we've all been of the same species. There is only one human race. So to call someone whose skin happens to be darker of a different "race" would be like saying that someone with red hair is of a different race than someone with black hair. Or, like saying a miniature chihuahua with brown and black hair is a different breed of dog than a miniature chihuahua with white hair.

"Racism, race and racist" are words people hide behind when they disagree with someone's culture. Underneath everything, we all are built with the same basic profile. So it's time we stop crying "racism" anytime someone has a problem with our cultural view. Why would some kid up in Minnesota put a Confederate Battle Flag decal on his truck. To him, it's probably a symbol of rebellion.

[Jim]

The PC police are going crazy in this country. Whats gonna be next, the Jesus fish on cars might upset an atheist? Better yet, the New York Yankees are gonna have to change their name to keep southerners from being upset. Simple rule, if you dont like it ignore it, when you raise your voice to complain about it, YOU bring more attention to it.

[Cici]

Go, Fred!!!
I'm appalled that it's teachers expressing the discomfort, when they are supposed to be educated themselves, in order to teach. One would 'assume' they knew the difference.
The Confederate flag was not created for the sole purpose of intimidating anyone. It has since then used to do so, by men who never graduated high school, in their white hoods.
I agree completely that there is only one race, no matter what color the skin, or shape of eyes or nose. What a boring place if we all looked alike.
Education is the only way to solve this country's problems, yet here are our educators causing a problem.
Go figure.

[kevy]

Well said fredzilla.

[Drake Timbershaft]

They regulate hats and hoods? Perhaps they should go back to not regulating clothing or personal statements at all...

[USMerc]

Bravo Fred!
Oh...Hi ya'll! I'm kinda back!!! I'll be in and out again....
Has anyone approached Fredzilla about becoming one of the high-priests yet?
Someone give him the run down will you please?

[Sigh]

This is their biggest problem? Must be quiet times up in Minnesota. Really. Don't they have an obesity epidemic, low math scores, teen pregnancy, truancy, bullying, crappy football teams -- anything else that takes priority over this?

[lynn]

i have to say this at the risk of being flamed broiled and served in a troll diner:

when did northern states start using and carrying confederate flags?? was minnesota even in the war? or even a state?

since when did that flag become a symbol of rebellion for people that do not live in the south?
of course, if some one wants to have one, that is their business just understand what it means to so many diverse people in the south. don't use it to show you are basically an idiot. and no, not every one in the south thinks we should go back to antebellum days.

[Navy Chief]

@Fred - Well said! Raceism is easy to use because it's easy to say. What would people use instead, culturalism? Culturalist? Appearancism? The mind boggles.

[lynn]

**Has anyone approached Fredzilla about becoming one of the high-priests yet?
Someone give him the run down will you please? **

what special powers can he have. Troschne is the lord of thunder...kc is the poet laureate...what do the other goddesses think?? in the mean time, i will get the sacred bath ready.

we have missed you lord merc!!!

[lykinsmom]

Fred--it is nice to see that there are more educated people out there who know what the "Stars and Bars" stood and still does stand for. I think that they should be teaching the truth about it more. I had to do research on my own to find out what ACTUALLY started the Civil War.

[Sigh]

To me, the distorted Confederate Battle Flag stands for defeated traitors to the USA (So there, ha ha). And maybe it stood for the same thing to this student. After all, he was displaying it upside down and in distorted proportions.

Or maybe he was some lonely hormone-addled teenager making a sign of teenage rebellion in a bid to get attention and boost his street cred.

Hell, it was Minnesota, not South Carolina.

[LimeGreenLizard]

Amen to Fredzilla and his acumen of logic! It is not race or skin color. Prejudice is always about cultural differences. Check out all the white people in Europe who’ve been at each other’s throats.

Merc, I don’t know what he should be god of either. As the Lizard god of sex and beach parties, I say let Fredzilla decide for himself. While Lynn is preparing the sacred bath, I’ll fire up the barbeque pit. And none of my pigs have the flu, so don’t worry.

[sometimesilie]

fredzilla, this is actually incorrect: "Lincoln didn't think much more of black people than anyone else. He wanted to ship them back to Africa."

Lincoln would have garnered far more support far earlier from even his Policies regarding blacks had he not taken a hard line stance against just that. I believe you are thinking of his Secretary of State, Seward (although I could be wrong) but it definitely wasn't Lincoln.

You can find racist/white supremacist views aplenty in the earlier works of Lincoln but they mostly disappear by the time of the Civil War.

[sometimesilie]

My post is hopelessly garbled. Many in Lincoln's own government did not support his "liberal" stance on freeing the slaves; many would only accept that on the condition that they be sent back to Africa. Lincoln refused to consider it.

[Soo]

As early as 1994, I had been told that the Confederate Flag was "they symbol of country music." Perhaps that's what this kid thought, too, and by placing it upside down, that was like having one of those pissing bart simpson stickers.

Just a thought.

[Russ]

Minnesota is climbing up in the ranks. It has a ways to go, but it's on the move.

[amurican/someguy]

"The Confederate flag was not created for the sole purpose of intimidating anyone. It has since then used to do so, by men who never graduated high school, in their white hoods."

Just to play devil's advocate; the swastika is a religious symbol, but I'm sure I'd catch heat for wearing one. Which is truly unfortunate because it represents universal harmony to Buddhists...

[Dirty Ert]

I am a hard core southerner. My people have been investing the southern Appalachians for over 200 years. Most all the ole boys I know, that are southern gentlemen, do not own a "rebel flag." But if you don't take your hat off during the national anthem at a ball game, and face your ass toward the Stars and Stripes, they'd 'bout kick the sh**t out of you.

[Kelly]

That school is opening a can or worms here. If they tell that kid he can't have his confederate flag decal, I think the kid with anti-abortion stickers should have to remove them too. It might traumatize and serve to harass the poor teenage girl who had one. Lets be fair here. Then, after that, they'd have to ban all bumper stickers in the school parking lot.

Why don't they just focus on educating the kids anymore?

[sometimesilie]

amurican/someguy: that's an interesting viewpoint. Philly used to have a huge Chinatown (still pretty big) before it got cut in half by 676 Highway and on the north side, which borders North Philly (full of poor minorities) there are or was (area is coming back) a number of busted out buildings from the "Old" Chinatown and a number of them had swastika motifs for decorative molding, around the edge of the roofs, over doors, etc. Obviously these people were not Nazi's.

[bobcat]

When I lived in Indiana, I saw knuckleheads with
the southern cross on their hoods. I was in a Long
John Silver in line to order when some kid drove
up with a southern cross draped on his trunk. He
had on a ballcap with a southern cross on it which
said, "American by birth, Southern by the grace of
god." I asked, "Whur you from?" He said, "Terre Haute."

[RockyMtnMac]

Missed you Merc!
I'm thinking our Fredzilla would be a great addition to the ranks of immortals.
Welcome Fredzilla - now see Lynn for your initiation.

[steveO]

"The Confederate flag was not created for the sole purpose of intimidating anyone. It has since then used to do so, by men who never graduated high school, in their white hoods."

It was created by a group waging war against the United States of America. Since then it has been used for intimidation.

[WZ]

was minnesota even in the war? or even a state? . Yes. And while our US soldiers were off fighting in the Civil War, the Souix Uprising happened here, and the end of that required Lincoln's direct intervention (the hanging of 38 Lakota, which is intensely controversial to this day here depending on if you ask a red person or a non-red person.)

[me]

FFS, let the kid express his identity. Go worry about something that matters.

I bet they have no problems with girls wearing skirts too high or tops too low, for example. Why worry about this kid's decal on his car that very few people will see.

[USMerc]

I've missed ya'll too! Things have been crazy here, so I'm kinda in and out....I hope to be more in than out now, but...who knows!

[American Veteran]

I'd bet most of these "educators" would be fooled if the kid put the flag of Great Britain in his window.
If they don't know the true causes of the Civil War, they probably have no clue about GB's flag either.

[mickie]

Can the confederate flag really be "upside down?" OK, yes, it can be upside down, but really, how would you know?

[Sigh]

As for Lincolns comments "If I could preserve the Union by freeing all the slaves, I would do so. If I could preserve the Union by freeing some slaves and leaving others as they are, I would do that. If I could preserve the Union while leaving all slaves enslaved I would do so."

He was not saying that he hated black people or loved slavery, but that instead he valued the Union first and foremost. He valued saving the Union over freeing the slaves. He thought that slavery was wrong, but that preserving the Union was a more pressing issue for his administration.

Anyone who knew Lincoln and had heard his many speeches, read his writings would have known he was against slavery. His position on slavery was exactly the reason he had to sneek into Washington for his inauguration, and why the southern states seceded.

Most educated people thought slavery was wrong at the time (and it was, is, and ever shall be, thank you). Basically all southerners knew world opinion was against slavery. Most southerners thought slavery was wrong, but some had an economic stake in slavery. Those southerners went through tortured arguments to justify their treatment of others as property. These people they owned, they had the 'right' to own because they were of a different race, which as fredzilla points out, isn't a terribly valid way to separate people in the first place.

The southern states (well, the rich white people that ran those states) believed in states rights because they were in the political minority. The 'right' that they were most afraid of losing, or even modifying, was slavery, the right to treat other people as property.

[NitroPress]

STL, the swastika was a common design motif, derived from Native American and subcontinent Indian symbolism, through the 1930s. Ever seen the photo of a young Jackie O in a tribal dress covered with swastikas?

Which does not change its utterly negative connotations today, as much as historical usage needs to be understood.

Ditto for the Confederate battle flag. Those who show it as a symbol of Southern pride, history etc. are woefully mistaken; the "Southern history" it celebrates is the antebellum slave economy era. It is NOT the flag of the Confederate nation; it is a battle standard, with considerably different meaning. Whatever positive aspects some may think it has - like the swastika - the overall negative connotation cannot be dismissed.

I do agree that ALL polarizing, contentious symbols and statements should be prohibited on public school grounds. No matter what the wearer/user thinks they mean, intentional/known offense to others should not be permitted at the subadult level.

[NitroPress]

The choice of the South in the Civil War was to maintain their slave-based economy and thus some parity with the industrialized North (and rest of the world), or to basically do the equivalent of us giving up petroleum.

As much as I sympathize with the plight of the South, then and for the century they were reduced in economic power, their "proud stand" was not justification for the vast evil of slavery. I have yet to meet a "Southern Pride" type who didn't mean pride in the great days before the War, when the South was a powerful nation-state of proud men... who earned their gold from the sweat of a near-majority of slaves.

I'm a reasonably proud Californian, but my pride does not extend to the excesses of Good Father Serra, chopping off his Indian slaves' feet.

[Sigh]

The upside down comment was meant as an reference to how do we really know why he glued the decal to the window (perhaps a not too clever attempt). Maybe he meant to hang it upside down. Maybe he knew it was a distorted version of the Confederate Battle Flag or an off color version of the Tenessee Battle Flag.

I think a modest decal in the window certainly falls firmly under the category of free speech. I also believe I have the right to say that as a symbol to take pride in, it is a lousy one.

[Bo Duke]

I am NOT painting the General Lee!!!!!!!

[Tank]

Fred! Excellent post, but a little off on a few relevant facts ....

1) "I've never considered the terms "racist, race and racism" to be accurate in any sense that they're being used."

The word 'Race' has many defintions, but here are two that are considered universal (in the order they appear in Collins Essential.)

a) a group of people of common ancestry with distinguishing physical features, such as skin colour or build
b) the human race human beings collectively

Using defintion a), terms like racism or racist are completely valid.

2) "Everyone automatically says the Civil War was a war over slavery. It was a war over States' Rights."

Historians and economists would argue that there are many causes for the Civil War, but the most accepted description is that it was a War for Independence/War to Preserve the Union (depending on which side you were on.)

3) "Lincoln didn't think much more of black people than anyone else. He wanted to ship them back to Africa."

It's true that Lincoln wasn't an Abolitionist, but he quietly rejected proposals to repatriate slaves and, in fact, supported slaves rights in general. (He was in all things pragmatic. He believed a more 'liberal' position on voting rights, judicial rights and property rights would be far too divisive, and would doom the entire cause to failure.)

[NitroPress]

Tank (and others): as much as the Southern Pride legion tries to paint the war as being about "states' rights" it is nearly impossible to find ANY root cause that does not trace back to slavery and the South's slave-based economy.

The "state right" the Southern states wanted was the right to keep their slaves, damyankee sensibilities be damned.

[Southern Boy]

I, In no way meant for the flag to be considered racist towards anyone. Thank you to all who have said and agreed with me about this article. I had three choices given to me about what i can do about the situation. #1 take the decal off, which i recieved as a birthday present from my girlfriend; No. #2: To drive another vehicle, sure if they would buy me another vehicle to drive. They said No. #3: Park Across the Street; sounded easiest so i did. I parked in the housing development across the street from my school just as i was told. Two hours into the school day I got called down to the office and was told I had to move my truck farther into the development because it was seen still from the school. They made me move it around the corner. I did. I honestly dont think this is right that i had to move across the street, and then get asked to move it farther. I put the flag on my truck as a present, im a southern guy who loves to hunt, go mudding, wheeling, and have a good time in the country. It was no way supposed to racist at all. Not one bit. I think this is enough to be said for now. I believe ive stated my point clear enough. If you have any other comments or anything please feel free to email me, id be glad to read it. (sa21091@hotmail.com)

Thanks for Reading.

[USMerc]

Is this the real guy???? ^

[NitroPress]

I find it REALLY fascinating when the subjects of these articles show up to comment. Kudos to those who have the courage to jump in and say their piece.

Southern Guy, you sound like a hell of a kid. I applaud your pride in your family roots (although it sounds like you're a little displaced!) Because "The South" and "The War" are still so intertwined in people's minds, showing pride in the first can be hard to distinguish from misplaced (or even evil) pride in the latter and its causes.

How about something else that shows you're a proud Southerner, without the connotations (whether you agree or not, some sensitivity is a good thing to show). What about the flag of your family's home state, now that most have removed the Confederate symbolism? What about an outline of the state and SOUTHERN PRIDE? There's lots of options that won't honk people off, rightly or wrongly.

[fredzilla]

I figured I'd stir up controversy. To clarify my states' rights comment. The Southern States were basically fighting for their right as sovereign states to secede from the Union if they felt the Union was not in their best interests. The Northern States were fighting for a mixture of reasons. Some in the North were wanting to preserve the Union. Not enough of them felt that was a good enough reason so Lincoln had to take his hard liberal stance to get enough support for the war.

The Southern States dislike of Lincoln had more to do with his stance that was evident in his series of speeches against Stephen Douglas in 1858. Another reason the Southern States disliked Lincoln is because he was elected by the Northern States. He wasn't even on the ballot in most of the states that seceded. In fact the only man in the 1860 campaign that ran a truly national campaign was Stephen Douglas.

I also applaud when the subject of one of the articles is willing to come here and share their point of view. I do think it is wrong that they made you move your car because it could still be seen.

[jojo]

Thank you Fred, it's not many who understand the civil war at all. I was actually raised in Illinois, and moved to the deep south as an adult. I had two confederate flags on the ceiling of my room as a teenager. My daughters have the same flags now in their rooms. My mom's family is in the South and educated me as a kid about things like this. I was proud of my flags as symbols of my heritage and where we came from, not hatred. My friends were a very diverse group, and not one of them thought to be offended by me or my flags. Maybe we just didn't know enough about getting publicity or trying to make other people pay for crimes they didn't commit. What I mean by that is this...my family were not wealthy land owners, they never owned a slave, but they still fought and gave their lives in the Civil War. Why? Because it wasn't about slaves to them.

It seems to me that this kid is being both stripped of his freedom of expression as well as being harassed. At this point the harassment is pointed at him and his vehicle, not at anyone else...so what gives??

[NitroPress]

Sorry, jojo, but anyone who fought for the South had the defense of slavery as his motivation, whether it was the stated reason or not.

Go ahead, string me a chain of logic for Silas T. Rebel fighting and dying for the CSA that does not conclude with maintaining a slave-based economy (and thus slavery, whether Silas liked it or not).

[USMerc]

Ok....Now everyone knows that I'm normally the one who says "let the fighting go on".....but really.....This war was fought almost 150 years ago....It's over....Really....Everyone who shed blood during it's battles has been rendered into dust already...Lets find a NEW reason to fight!!!!!!

[twerp]

Them Duke boys is screwwed. I get BO!! He has those dreamy eyes!

[55Chevy]

Fredzilla said it pretty well. The near sighted Jerry Springer mentality of the media and sadly most who have a job of educating our children has created a lot of untruths about this period in history. Lincoln was simply a politician, nearing the lows of Clinton and Obama. Blacks was not his priority as portrayed in all the bogus media hype.

[sometimesilie]

^ Woooo-HAW, we got ourselves an honest-to-goodness Parti-san. Someone pass me a camera!